Talk:Goddess of Time/Archive 1

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I don't know if Nayru should be posted as the most likely candidate.--Remo 08:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Any particular reason? —Ando (talk) 19:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Really Remo? It woul seem as Nayru is the most likely of the three to be the Goddess of Time. ZeldaGirl96 20:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

nevermind...the theory section is there now...so thats satisfying enough. It's just cuz it was stated so matter of factly thats why it bugged me.--Remo 21:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel the article should be expanded. "Nayru is more often attributed to the element of time" is used as justification, but there are no specific examples listed. I personally don't know of any such examples. HylianElf 03:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Look no further than Nayru, Oracle of Ages. This is why Nayru is the most likely thought to be the Goddess of Time. --Felicia's Champion 05:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Plus, I think there's this whole subconscious thing in Zelda, where people associate the color blue with time...

Oracle Nayru's candidacy is still suspect, though. I expanded a lot. Hope this sees the issue from all sides. --Linque1 04:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Theory

This article doesn't conform with the wiki's quality standards regarding theories. Previously it was in poor shape, and with the addition of the lengthy new Theory section the lack of references has become too great to ignore. Also, to me the writing style doesn't seem suitably encyclopedic or in keeping with the phrasing of normal article content. My first instinct was to revert the recent changes, but instead I've added the relevant templates. If sufficient improvements can't be made, reversion amy still be deemed necessary (in line with the policy stated above). —Adam ^{[ talk ]} 11:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree with you Adam. This article is literally "all over the place" with the theories, they're not even coherent. There are no references, and what evidence is stated is so "all over the place" that one can't really make much sense out of it. I would agree with any of the actions you suggested above myself and perhaps have a complete overhaul of the entire article to start from scratch, it's become that confusing and incoherent. Link87 13:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The new additions to this article are a wordy....er...mess? A lot of things are incoherent. Not only this, but the theories are pretty far fetched. I think it needs reverted, unless someone thinks it holds merit? I personally cannot see any. Mandi ^Talk 14:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Duly noted. I'll see what I can do to conform so my work isn't completely erased. Also, I apologize for the number of changes to the page. I suppose I didn't have every picture at my disposal or know how important it was to keep the history page clean. It was, as you noticed, a large amount of information I was adding. I hit the wrong button sometimes or my computer shuts down for no reason and when a lot of work is lost that way enough times it trains a person to save often. I'll try to become more adept at saving in the biggest chunks possible in the future. In the meantime I wonder if there is a standard of conformity for "all over the place." I thought what I added was somewhat well thought-out, but I suppose I can be wrong; help me understand what you mean so I can improve the article and my future writing. Also, while I have someone who can help me, what does the "UTC" mean st the end of the siggy's? Thanks for the feedback. --Linque1 09:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so having reviewed the standards page for Theories, I saw that it was encouraged to discuss the relevance and the acceptedness of said theories before posting them. Maybe I should start there. I'll be as direct as possible even though some of these topics have been discussed elsewhere:

What are your opinions on the possibility of Nayru being the Goddess of Time?

What are your opinions on the possibility of Farore being the Goddess of Time?

What are your opinions on the possibility of Din being the Goddess of Time?

What are your opinions on the possibility of there being a fourth goddess whose sole theme is time?

My opinions are already contained in the article. I would be willing to edit them as is shown necessary by the above discussion. Please help me make this an effective page, rather than allowing this thought and work to count for nothing. --Linque1 10:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Linque1, our biggest concerns stem from several things however: as this is an encyclopedia, any information that is not offical (via confirmation by the series creators or Nintendo) should have credible evidence to back it up as well as references as to where this evidence comes from. This is one of the great hallmarks that separates Zelda Wiki from others such as Zeldapedia, our higher regard for references and direct confirmation. As for me, the only logical and credible candidate I can see for the Goddess of Time is Nayru, as she is the one that created the laws of science which include time itself. The others, no offense, don't seem to have any credible evidence to support them. That's just me though, I can't speak for everyone else. Theories need to be in a theory section with credible evidence and references to back it up. Without those, there's no need to include it. If those are present, they can be welcome additions to articles. To me however, the only credible candidate is Nayru since the only credible evidence I've seen supports her. Others may feel differently about this, but the others are more for forum thought since they don't have the credibility that Nayru does. This article in general needs a complete revamp though in my opinion. It shouldn't look like an essay (which it does, right down to the conclusion), this is an encyclopedia article. Only information regarding the Goddess of Time, where she is mentioned, any details about her, and only credible theories as to candidates to be her should be inlcuded here. This just too much has the feel of being more of a persuasive essay than an encyclopedia article. I personally would favor starting over from scratch or reverting and doing a complete re-write as Mandi has said, because there's just too much here to fix and not enough meat to support keeping it as the theories outside of Nayru are indeed pretty far-fetched with no relevant or credible evidence to support them really. Link87 15:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. You want it to be as factual as possible. I'm re-working what I wrote before now, so give me a little time and hopefully it will come out better the second time. Linque1 15:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry to say that after spending the greater part of the morning and afternoon trying to overhaul what I've written I happened to press the wrong button and lose all of my revised text and images because I failed to save the page as I was requested not to do. Unfortunately I haven't the time to do this all day and I regrettably must concede to the wishes if the Zelda Wiki staff. Please accept my apologies, but I hope you can salvage something from what I've already written. Linque1 18:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

A little tip that I learned long ago through similar bitter experiences (this goes for all wikis, forums etc). When working on a lengthy artcile or post, always save your work in a file on your computer before uploading. You never know when you'll have a sudden power cut/browser crash/finger malfunction. Also, saving once or twice during major changes is fine, it's generally anything upwards of half a dozen that starts to peeve people. —Adam ^{[ talk ]} 18:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

More information is appreciated. But as they said copy/paste it to Wordpad work on it save it and copy/paste it back in. And preview your edit instead of saving on the wiki so much. Most of the added images seem unnecessary to me. I was going to make some changes on the page, but I'll wait until you have had time to finish your work. I'm certain much of your work will be safe here as the Goddess of Time is a frequent topic among the affiliate's forums. That's sorta what the theory sections are here for. Since the wiki is meant to be debate neutral, we just try to keep the facts in here and let the forums make the arguments. Some suggestions I have for the page, I don't want to disrupt your endeavor so you can implement them to your satisfaction.

1. Rearrange the sections. ie: Din section is much smaller than Farore.
2. Reduce image clutter
3. Use cross-references instead of presenting the Tetraforce theory anew.
4. Back up as much as you can with references.

Axiomist (talk) 00:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I've done what I can. I hope this works well enough to stay. Linque1 01:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Overall Page

Well the changes are a mixed bag to me. On one hand its shorter a little more to the point but it feels something was lost along the way. Plus the sections are gone. So...I'm gonna set aside my current projects here and see if I can't strike a balance between the two. Axiomist (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Intending to proceed with civility, I'm getting the feeling that it really doesn't matter to what extent the page is improved upon or compromises are offered, someone with more influence than myself seems to override what I feel to be perfectly valid points and belittle them elsewhere. I still feel (and I hope that my concerns can be seen as representing some valid portion of the fan base), that it is not a stretch to see the Goddess of Time as her own entity, as typically people who are as yet unknown are not blanketly shoved into another persona for the sake of unifying every possible character that shares a similar theme. I have tried to strike a balance as well by offering counterexamples to demonstrate that I am not simply making up what I have to say, but somehow, after two full days of attempting to provide some worthwhile material it gets smudged over, the unique parts ommitted, and my theories labeled as "foolish."

As a sidenote, the new first paragraph seems to focus overmuch on the plot of Majora's Mask, and too little on the significance of the Goddess of Time. Also, it seems that a heading like Possible Candidates (in the plural) ought to cover more than one candidate in more depth than is listed currently. Further, while the idea that time resides within the realm of science and order is a plausible conclusion of logic, it does not mean that the Goddess Nayru has monopoly on the element. Were there not two Gods of the Wind in Wind Waker, Cyclos and Zephos? Finally, I find it very relevant to say on this page (and not just another where the idea is snubbed) that the Goddess of Time does not necessarily have to be one of the Golden Goddesses. There is no legitimate evidence that demands she be Nayru, however plausible the argument may be. Linque1 04:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't fret, we are discussing the very matter in Skype. My edit included your points but cleared it up by cutting out some of the fluff. My take on it is that the wiki lays out all of the common points from the fan base. I do think Christopher sees my point on that now. But if you really want to get involved in the discussions you can join us in the Skype text chat. To keep the wiki a little cleaner we do most of the larger discussions there. Axiomist (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the timely response. Where and how does one Skype text chat? Linque1 04:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

No problem, just download Skype, install it and search my screen name and I can add you in.Axiomist (talk) 04:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

In response, you did say we can go forward and do what we need to do to bring it up to wiki standards Linque1, and with all due respect, the Goddess of Time only features into Majora's Mask, and that's why the intro paragraphs of the articles focus solely on their role in the series and not on theories. Those are for the theory sections. Link87 04:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Please allow me to clarify; as you can see when you look back at my comments, I mentioned that I had lost my work more than once and didn't have the time to do it yet again, hence leaving the edit to whomever should pick it up. When I had the time and patience to continue, I had hoped it would not be for nothing, as it seems now to have been. To comment on the treatment of the first paragraph, I don't consider it a theory to recognize that a person's identity has not yet been conclusively revealed. I've downloaded Skype; my username is HeroofGeeks. Linque1 05:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The identity of the Goddess of Time should be discussed in theory sections. The introductory paragraph is solely about what is factually known, nothing more. And I do apologize about much of your work being removed, but most were in agreement that it wasn't really able to be used because of the way it was put together and a lack of relevancy for much of it. It was simpler to just start over from scratch to make an article that conforms to the wiki's standards and that is coherent for everyday users. If you value what you wrote, a good thing for you to do would be to post it on your own page as your own personal essay. But within the article itself, there needs to be relevant and credible information for what is presented. Link87 05:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The page looks great! Thanks to Axiomist for his "off-the-clock" support with the issues we were facing for the page's content. Two comments that simply register as not quite right; Nayru is never stated as having created the laws of time or been responsible for governing time. This is a logical conclusion following from fan speculation, and not fact as it seems to be represented here. Notwithstanding the statement appearing in the theory portion of the page, it is used as evidence and not speculation, which is what it is.

Second, it is here stated that the Goddess of Time has only been mentioned in Termina, but this is misleading. It is true that the flashback which shows princess Zelda telling Link about the Goddess of Time occurs while Link is on the Clock Tower in Termina, but the event to which Link is flashing back must have necessarily occurred before he "went down the rabbit hole" and therefore more likely occurred in Hyrule, prior to Link's meeting the Skull Kid in the first place. This becomes important as one considers relevance related to location; the Goddess of TIme is not only known in Termina.

Other than these two minor details I would say the page looks lovely. Thank you again, Axiomist. Linque1 14:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to burst your bubble Linque1, but time is one of the fundamental elements of science if you've ever taken science courses, and Nayru is indeed said to have created the laws of science and wizardry in the manual of ALttP, as is shown at the bottom in the references section, which you didn't have present when you put your essay onto the page. So no, it's not "fan speculation," it is actually spoken of in one of the manuals. May want to check those things before making accusations that are incorrect. So sorry to say, and not to be rude at all, but you may want to reevaluate some of your words b/c Nayru is indeed stated to be responsible for creating the laws of science and wizardry, and time is an element of science. Link87 15:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad that you aren't trying to be rude; nor am I. While the art of science, if I can venture to call it that, observes many things and creates hypotheses concerning them, a scientist has no more ability to control the forces he is observing than a weather watcher has the ability to create tornados simply because he knows how they work. If all aspects of science were to be included you would also have to admit that Nayru is the Goddess of Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electricity, Magnetism and so forth, none of which I believe she is. Simply including a topic which is observed by science is clearly not enough. Hence fan speculation. And I was well aware of the quote you are referring to; I was the one who posted it on the page originally:

"The God of Wisdom created science and wizardry and brought order to nature." --n/a, A Link to the Past Manual

Further:

"Nayru...Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world." --The Great Dekku Tree, Ocarina of Time, "When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens." --Lanayru, Twilight Princess. In none of these instances, which might be considered the defining sources for what the Goddesses were responsible for at the creation of Hyrule, there is there any mention of time, nor is it inferred other than as you have said, which I have already commented on. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't belittle me for the sake of proving your point.Linque1 15:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Linque1, you still don't get what I'm saying: time is one of the fundamental qualities of science. For example, length, mass, time, luminous intensity, etc, those are all fundamental qualities that make up the building blocks of science. Time is one of the top 3 amongst those in fact. You're just not understanding what I'm trying to make clear. This is nothing to do with scientists, this is to do with science itself. Nayru created the laws of science and wizardry in Hyrule, so she was responsible for the creation of time by extension. It doesn't have to say time specifically if it envelopes the entire field of science having been created by Nayru. I know it may run contrary to yoru own beliefs, but it's just the way it is.

On another topic, there are three goddesses we have heard of throughout the series but have never seen in person, and I think personally that each of them is an alternate title for one of each of the three Golden Goddesses:

• The Goddess of the Sand I believe could possibly be Din, since Din was noted to have created the red earth and soil of Hyrule, including sand, as well as her connection through the Triforce of Power to Ganondorf, a Gerudo.

• The Goddess of Time I believe is very likely Nayru for the reasons that have already been listed, foremost being her responsibility for creating the laws of science as well as her connection to Princess Zelda.

• The Goddess of Wind I believe could very well be Farore, given that the element of wind is related to nature (Farore was the mother of all life or the equivalent of "Mother Nature" in Hyrule), her spell involves wind and that Farore is implied to be the Goddess for whom the Wind Temple was built in honor of. Link87 15:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") refers to any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science) Again, the art of science is a matter of observation and formulation of hypothesis, or, put simply, the discovering of information. Time, as well as space and energy, are those mediums through which we gain the knowledge we have, but are not science itself. By referring to time, space, and forms of energy or manipulating them to differing effects, we are utilizing the inherent qualities that already exist to achieve certain predictable effects. At its most basic level, science deals with these three mediums, but is not itself composed of them. If, however, by saying Nayru is the Goddess of Time by virtue of time being a medium observed and manipulated by science, then you also admit that she is the Goddess of the other mediums observed and manipulated by it as well. Logic demands that she also be the Goddess of Space (as per length, width, etc.) and energy (as per heat and light). As she is neither of these, nor does it seem probable that she would be attributed with a quality already possessed by another goddess (such as fire: a form of energy), we must logically assume that Time cannot be attributed to Nayru *solely* on this basis.

I am intrigued by your hypothesis (funny that word should come to my mind about now) regarding the other "unknown" Goddesses. I would agree that the Goddess of Courage is the Goddess of Wind; Wind Waker and the Gale Boomerang convince me of that. I also agree that Din is a likely candidate for the Goddess of the Sand; the most likely in my opinion. I find it intriguing to consider that some of the Goddesses will "double-up" on elements in this way. Consider the oriental take on elements as compared to the Sages present in the Ocarina of Time. The elements according to Japanese tradition are Earth, Fire, Wind, Water and a fifth element alternately translated as "Sky" or "Heaven" (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_elements_(Japanese_philosophy)). The six Sages are: Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit, Light. Each of these is a different race; respectively, Kokiri, Goron, Zora, Sheikah, Gerudo, Hylia. The Princess Zelda makes seven, though she is given no clear element over which to be a Sage, but the curious thing I noticed is that out of seven Sages, now there are two Hylians; one representing Light, and another...something. I will subit that Din reigns over both Fire and Earth, Farore over both Nature and Wind, and that Nayru reigns over at least Wisdom, and (so say I) Light, "Sky", or "Heaven" by virtue of Rauru's position as the Sage of Light. Sorry if I opened a whole other can of worms.

Linque1 17:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Conversely, on the matter of doubling up elements in anomalous ways, consider the lack of logic that comes from making a Zora (a race associated with Nayru) the Sage of Earth (an element associated with Din) in Wind Waker. I submit that this kind of anomalous pairing is what occurred when they made Din the Oracle of Seasons when this title refers to the Essence of Nature (an element associated with Farore). ("Twinrova called Onox and Veran forth from the darkness. Their mission was to send the Essences of Nature and Time into chaos, they were to hand to Twinrova the sorrow, depair and destruction of the people." --Din, Oracle of Seasons) It could be that the Oracles are not bound to only have the attributes of their namesakes, hence my hesitancy to admit that the oracle Nayru having time-travel powers does not necessarily constitute a direct connection between the Goddess of Wisdom and the Goddess of Time.Linque1 17:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Linque1, an intriguing analysis of science, however you still fail to grasp the basic premise upon which I have stated before: time is one of the fundamental building blocks of science, it is one of the fundamental qualities, and yes, Nayru could well be the "Goddess of Space" or whatever other names you came up with by virtue that she was responsible for setting the universe in order by creating the laws of science to govern it, we just haven't heard any of these other titles used for her yet. That doesn't disqualify her from possibly bearing the title of "Goddess of Time". She is by extension of being the founder of science and wizardry indeed related to time as time is one of the fundamental qualities that keeps "order" in the universe. All the other things you stated, while fascinating, still don't do anything to disqualify this I'm afraid. And yes, Nayru the Oracle does seem to be a strong connection between both she and the Goddess Nayru since Nayru was responsible for creating the laws of science, from which time itself descends. Let's face it: there are WAY more indicators that connect Nayru to the Goddess of Time than most others. I know you may want to find ways to prove otherwise and that's fine, but what you've stated still doesn't do anything to disqualify any of these premises that are supporting Nayru's candidacy thus far. And the others I've seen presented seem to have far weaker evidence to support them to me when placed beside Nayru. I can't speak for everyone else, but that seems to be the case to me that of all known candidates, Nayru is the one most likely to indeed be the Goddess of Time. Link87 17:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That is, *if* she must be one of the Golden Goddesses at all. I see where you're coming from, Link87, but you seem to have overlooked what I said earlier regarding the overlap of themes within the realm of science. Consider the Laws of Thermodynamics. These, clearly, are essential to science as well as the Laws of Time. But Nayru does not manipulate heat, or fire; Din does. My object is not to discredit an honest theory, but to keep the theory honest. If you can't admit that there are flaws to the logic of saying that time must be included in Nayru's characteristics only because it is an essentail part of science, then I can go no further. Having said that, I respect the theory that Nayru could be the Goddess of Time in general and, based on all of the evidence at hand, agree with you; out of the three Golden Goddesses, she is the most likely candidate...*if* she must be any of them at all. It isn't right to say that just because something is logical it must be fact. That's where theories come from. Nayru is not conclusively the Goddess of Time. She is not conclusively the one who manipulates and is responsible for time in the universe. However likely, it has not been stated canonically, and despite overwhelming evidence to the affirmative, the Oracle Nayru's powers are no direct statement of the Goddess of Time's connection with the Goddess of Wisdom. It simply cannot be considered fact, as it is being represented.Linque1 19:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Linque1, you are reading WAY too far into a lot of these things, and it is bordering on silly, no offense. Every respected scientist or science student in the world can tell you that time is indeed a major building block in the field of science and is under the umbrella of science. As Nayru was the creator of science and wizardry in Hyrule, the answer is yes as a matter of fact that she was responsible for the establishment of time itself when she brought order to Hyrule. So I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you about the part of Nayru not being responsible for the establishment of time, because the facts are to the contrary. If you will remember, the Great Deku Tree said "Before time began...." before going on to tell about the creation of Hyrule and stating that Nayru "poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world." Nayru was the one responsible for establishing the laws of time, which brought order to the formerly chaotic Hyrule as well as the other laws of science that governed the physical world of Hyrule. Just because it's not directly spelled out for you doesn't mean it's not a fact, and seeing as it's explicitly stated that she was responsible for bringing order to the universe by establishing the laws of science and wizardry, she was indeed responsible for the establishment of time. You need to step back and take a deep breath my friend, because you're reading WAY too far into all these things trying to come up with counterpoints, but they just don't add up I'm afraid. That's just my opinion. Link87 19:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Look, all I'm asking is that something isn't stated as fact when it's not. You're right, perhaps this conversation has gone on too long. But all of our respective trains of logic aside, Nayru hasn't been confirmed as the Goddess of Time. She just hasn't. As I stated before, I respect the Nayru/Goddess of Time theory; I do believe that out of the Golden Goddesses she is the most likely candidate. But she is not the *only* valid candidate. The Goddess of Time could very well just be herself, and that doesn't take theory or logic to prove. It just takes a person with enough humility (forgive me, but I will admit to my own stubbornness as well) to allow other fans the right to call an error when they see it. It is a mistake to outright call Nayru the Goddess of Time. Please understand, I'm not looking for the whole Nayru/Goddess of Time thing to be thrown out the window, I'm just looking for a little respect for the facts. Please just allow me to restore the Goddess of Time's identity as unknown and unconfirmed, and to maintain that any connections Nayru has to the element of time are percieved, if obvious, and not factual. Linque1 20:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

And I'm asking you to please quit saying it's not a fact when it in fact is. There is no error in that Nayru was responsible for creating the laws of time, no matter how much you may want to deny it. It's just fine the way it is to be honest, we've already addressed that the Goddess of Time could be her own entity in the theory section, where it belongs. Nowhere in the main parts of the article does it say for certain that Nayru is the Goddess of Time, it states that her identity is at present unconfirmed with possible candidates in the theory section. And forgive me, please take no offense, but I don't think it's a good idea to tamper with the main parts of the article beyond the associations and theories after Axiomist and I went to the trouble to get things back to where they are coherent and readable. This debate is, as far as I go, closed. Any further theories you have about the topic belong on the forums, not on talk pages and not in the main articles. The most credible theories are already present, so it would be my suggestion that now that the article is back to where it halfways meets standards that you direct any further comments or theories you have to the forums, where they belong, as is noted in the opening of the theory section (any theories or conspiracy theories that don't have a lot of concrete evidence to back them up or that are far-fetched at best belong in the forums, not in the articles). Link87 22:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Then consider this my final post on this discussion page. I will, however, draw your attention to the fact that Nayru's associations with time are not posted as theory elsewhere on ZW. I think you've wrongfully allowed fiction to be represented as conclusive. By doing so you have, in so many words, declared that the identity of the Goddess of Time is, in fact, the Goddess Nayru and are misleading ususpecting fans according to your own perspectives and not canonical fact. Given your vehemence with this matter I don't see why you even maintain the Goddess of Time page as it is and merge it with Nayru (Goddess) permanently. I will have to live with the staff of this website putting words in the mouth of the creators of the Legend of Zelda. As you have said, I mean you personally no offense by this. I suppose I have learned my lesson. Linque1 22:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Correction, that has been because most other users have come to the general consensus that she is Nayru, not because of me personally my friend. Please understand we've already addressed all the issues you've said, but you've been beating a dead horse about issues that have no relevancy while trying to prove a fruitless point. We all understand that the Goddess of Time has not been confirmed officially, and we've stated that on this page. Any further comments you have on the topic as said before belong in the forums. Nobody is "misleading" anybody here, that's just the community's general consensus, so sorry that it doesn't match your own views if that's the case. But as far as this discussion, it's case closed. Link87 22:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)