Community:The Midna Art Debate

Note: This is an actual debate that happened on May 28-29th 2008. The normal page (Without this debate) Can be found here.

The Issue

Should fan art and altered official images be allowed on the wiki? Or should we only allow official art that is not altered and not fan-art?

The Debate

This image... Is it official art or fan-made by someone on DeviantArt? If it's fan-made it needs to not be on Midna's gallery page. --Ando 18:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I just went to DeviantArt, and it is, in fact, fan-art. Removing from gallery page (although it IS a nice picture!). --Ando 18:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind again, I'm behind on the times. Adam's already done it. Man, I need to look at all the edits before I say something. :P --Ando 18:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

O noes. This is awesome! Don't take it off! Make a fan art gallery! Just. Don't. Take. It. Off. The. Page. --Seablue254 19:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It's already been taken off of the gallery; it's fan art, and fan art is unacceptable for articles and galleries. Fan art only has a place on user pages, which this picture is being used on; therefore, it won't be deleted. --Ando 19:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

...fine. keep awesome fan art off awesome pages. --Seablue254 19:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Seablue, This is an awesome picture and should be on the page fan-art or not.--Toon Link 00:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

This image is, in a way, semi-official. This image and others like it are of the actual model from the game. So, in a technical sense, it is official.--Mjr162006 00:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, it's really just an edited model of Midna. It's from the game still. Heck, this is such a good picture it should be on Midna's page.--Toon Link 00:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi-official =/= official. If I take a piece of official art and draw something on it, it's not "official art" anymore; it has been altered by a fan in a way such that it no longer resembles an officially released image. As a result, it is not appropriate for the wiki. Again, I agree that it is a great looking image (incredibly hi-res, to boot), but does not belong on any article or gallery. --Ando 15:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Your reasoning is flawed. According to what you said, we can't use any images that have had their background made transparent. And we can't use images that were blurry and have been cleared up. There is no difference between this model and a screenshot of a game. If we can't use this, then logic follows that we can't use any of the screensots either. This is, of course, absurd. I know you don't mean any of this. But like it or not, that is exactly what you are saying.
I meant semi-official in that it was like a screenshot. So in that sense, my last post was consistent.--Mjr162006 16:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Case in point...

Look guys, quit the semantics. Short answer is, Ando's right. This is a very fine line, and the level of tolerance must be zero. Otherwise where do you draw the line? I think the image to the right is pretty well done, and bar the addition of the blue swishes it's pretty much the same classification as the one we're discussing. But clearly this isn't suitable, as the pose is entirely non-canonical. Just because you take a game model and reposition it, it doesn't mean it's still acceptable. The image we're discussing could just as easily have been nearly identical, except with Midna's finger jammed up her nose. Would we allow that? --Adamcox82 22:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Every rule has its exceptions. The world isn't black and white. A consensus should be reached on whether or not to use an image. Sometimes, to convey an intended meaning, official sources are lacking. In such cases, other sources must fill the gap. Nintendo doesn't have official art of Midna's true form for obvious spoiler reasons. The "line" is not drawn only once. It must be closely examined, and possibly redrawn, whenever something approaches it.--Mjr162006 23:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

You can't tell us to quit the semantics just because you can't think of a comeback. Mjr162006 is right, you made the wings on the shadow isect queen tranparent, that was changing offical art.--Toon Link 23:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

While I find it amusing that one picture can create this much turmoil, I really must intervene...

The fact of the matter is, and I think everyone here will agree with me, a picture with Midna "jamming her finger up her nose" would be perceived as an insult to the character by everyone on this site, while this picture everyone seems to love. 50% love this picture, and want to put it on Midna's page. 25% want to keep the picture, but not on Midna's page, instead only on user pages, while the last 25% want to delete it outright.

This is what I think (bear with me): If a picture of Fanart is applied to a page (non-user), it should be of quality like this one, and should be labelled as much. eg:

File:Midna's true form.jpg

Fanart of Midna

As reasonable as this sounds, I can already tell people are going to blow this solution away. But, truthully, the world isn't just black or white. If you ask me where I stand, I'd have this on the page. But I don't think I'll get involved in this arguement any more than this. --Yuvorias, 31 May 2008 (EST)

Actually, no one wants it deleted. After all it's being used on your userpage. I agree 100%, only high-quality fan-art should be on an article (this isn't even entirely fan-art). If a litle kid scrribled a picture of Midna, it shouldn't be on the article because it's a bad picture. And, Midna with her finger up her nose wouldn't look all that professional.--Toon Link 02:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

But then, where do you draw the line of what is considered "high-quality"? High-quality can be subjective: some may consider it just extremely high-resolution pictures, while others may consider high-quality "as high as I could capture from the YouTube video". Others still will have differing opinions.

Regardless, though, I'm just gonna say this once: we don't make the rules, we just enforce them. This isn't just personal opinion (although it is an opinion that I hold). If it went along with the Wiki guidelines I'd allow it, but it doesn't, so... I won't. --Ando 05:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I've heard this rule quoted often, but where is it written down. Unwritten rules are not enforcible. As are rules that are not clearly spelled out to all involved. I've just looked at the guidelines and there is no mention for it. I think that there was a small page created recently that gave reasons for deletion of images. Where did those rules come from?
Keep in mind that all rules have one thing in common, they tend to require revision from time to time. We all know who the owner of the Zelda Wiki.org domain is. But it has been made abundantly clear that the users that edit it are the owners of the site itself. Therefore, overriding a rule is a simple matter of a community consensus. Remember, it is not black and white. There are many shades of gray in between.--Mjr162006 05:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I can't find the rule either; I'll give you that one. :P It's something that I hear quite often though (especially from Adam, who's been here longer than the both of us combined), so I figure that it's a rule to enforce.
Still, where do you draw the line? I have yet to see that answered. :/ As I've said, "high-quality" is relative. So... yeah, I'm agreeing with Yuvorias: I'm leaving this conversation as I see it degrading into nothing more than sheer argument and anger, and that's not cool. --Ando 05:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Would a formal vote be possible? That would be a more professional way of doing it. Also, I'm not angry at all. I perfectly understand what is being said. I'm simply trying to open doors to alternate sources. The decision for fan-made image to be used in an article should not be taken lightly. This image would convey a meaning with which there is no comparable alternative from an official source. Therefore, it is important that the possibility of using this image be carefully considered.--Mjr162006 05:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Aw shit. You guys battled through the whole night. *facepalm*. Time to fix this. --Seablue254 12:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. Now, please LEAVE IT. --Seablue254 12:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You people are petty and silly. It's a model ripped from the game, posed in a manner that makes the character's distinguishing features most visible. It's mildly altered (the texture resolution was increased for neatness), but otherwise it's a solid picture that represents Midna's true form. It's from the game, I consider it official in the way I would a screenshot. The creator did NOT take any creative license in altering this image as someone's "case in point" example did. Therefore, it cannot possibly be defined as fan art. A fan rip, possibly - but it's altered so little that you cannot possibly group it in with some idiot that made Midna dance for fun. The lack of creative license taken in this model rip signifies that it is not only safe to use on the wiki, but its use should be encouraged over the blurry screenshots of Midna's true form we've had up until this image.

In addition - what the heck is a "canonical pose"? How can a POSE possibly be called canonical? It has nothing to do with the story. A pose is a pose. Are the poses from Twilight Princess's official site also non-canonical? --GoldenChaos 13:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Mrenh. But again, a line will have to be drawn at some point (such as, where is the line between mildly altering the pose and dramatically altering it to the point where it can't be used?). I propose that any future instances of such a discussion utilize the voting system proposed by Mjr, just so we can avoid having this discussion again. :P --Ando 13:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Num 1. If it's been altered, use my template, god damn it!

Num 2. Sure, lets use the voting system. --Seablue254 13:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with a vote. I think this is the biggest talk page for a picture I've ever seen.--Toon Link 16:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a legendary battle that should be remembered for all time. Well, no one got hurt and the outcome was constructive. Maybe we could archive this sometime for all future users to see. As far as I can tell, no one got all angry. No one resorted to insults. Everyone stayed professional. Quite a clean debate — debate, not argument. Debate sounds better. Someone come up catchy name for this debate. The something something debate, or something ^_^.--Mjr162006 16:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The Fan-Art/Altered Art vs. Official Art Debate. I likes it. --Seablue254 16:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Could shorten it up to FAVO debate, short for Fan-Art/Altered Art Vs. Official Art debate. I really like that. —Mjr162006 17:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, "FAVO" Sounds kinds corny --Seablue254 17:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I GOT IT!!! I GOT IT!!!It is sooooo simple!!!
...
...
The Midna Debate. Simple, effective, and elegant right? —Mjr162006 17:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Make it The Midna Fan-art Debate or The Midna Art Debate. The Midna debate sounds like it has something to do explicitly with Midna, which is not the case. --Seablue254 17:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Now we're on to something. Make it The Midna Art Debate. That's the shorter one. It also include altered art and official art in the title. That's it! —Mjr162006 18:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, i shall move this to the page The Midna Art Debate. It was good working with you people! --Seablue254 18:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think making a whole article for this debate was kinda over-doing it but, I'm happy with the way things turned out. Yeah sure, I made myself rather unpopular but, I'm happy.--Toon Link 20:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The Participants

Major Participants:

• Mjr162006
  
• Ando
  

Partial Participants

• Seablue254
  
• Toon Link
  

Minor Participants

• Adamcox82
  
• Yuvorias
  
• Jason
  

The Outcome

A voting was made, where it was decided by Seablue254 that the Image should be in Midna's Gallery anyway. At the moment, the Image has a template, is in a Category for fan art, and is in the gallery.