Talk:Zelda Timeline

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Official timeline in Hyrule Historia?

The recently published Zelda book, Hyrule Historia, seems to have an official timeline in it to end the discussions and theories. Anyways, here it goes:

              Skyward Sword
                    |
             The Minish Cap
                    |
               Four Swords
                    |
             Ocarina of Time

This is the first part of the timeline. The interesting part is that according to the book, it splits not in two parts, but rather in three.

A means when the Hero of Time fails, B means the Child Timeline and C means the Adult Timeline.

                          Ocarina of Time
                                 |
          ---------------------------------------------
         /                       |                     \
        A                        B                      C
 A Link to The Past        Majora's Mask          The Wind Waker
        |                        |                      |
   Oracle series         Twilight Princess      Phantom Hourglass
        |                        |                      |
 Link's Awakening      Four Swords Adventures     Spirit Tracks
        |
The Legend of Zelda
        |
The Adventure of Link

What do you think? I guess this should be at least considered in the page. Thanks.

Sources:
http://kotaku.com/5869993
/http://www.linkshideaway.com/QuickNews.asp?cmd=view&articleid=716
http://bbs2.ruliweb.daum.net/gaia/do/ruliweb/default/nds/84/read?articleId=649765&bbsId=G003&itemId=5&pageIndex=1

--Zelda Fan 123 11:17, 21 December 2011 (EST)

This is all pretty fascinating, but I really think we need some proper translations. Some things need explanation before they make sense, namely the third split, and the placement of Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures (that hurts my brain, doesn't FSA directly refer to Link being the same Link?) and Zelda not recognising Link in the Oracle games (namely whether its the same Link or not). Most new translations are turning up here http://historyofhyrule.com. As far as I can tell, the timeline that Kotaku is running with is based on that single post on a Korean website with very little explanation. No scans are available yet. Until it turns up in the hands of reputable sources and actual events can be discussed (personally I have ordered one, but my knowledge of Japanese is very limited) I think its best to keep it off the page. Obviously once its translated, this whole page will need a rewrite.

Also, this may end up as nothing, but so far in the preview pages that HAVE been translated, the ordering of events is still very vague and could possibly be open to some interpretation. For instance, if the Oracle games happen to share the same page as ALttP and LA, that doesn't not necessarily mean that it comes between them.

Personally I'm liking the three split option as it means my beloved ALttP's backstory isn't messed about with too much. Always bothered me how Nintendo sort of forgot that OoT was a prequel to it. The failure timeline is full of win. Fizzle 14:04, 22 December 2011 (EST)

I'm a bit confused about the "failure" timeline. How could ALttP happen if the events of the adult OoT weren't stopped? Wouldn't Ganon simply rule the universe? Wasn't OoT specifically made as a prequel to ALttP anyway, and now they're saying that only the first quarter of it is the prequel? Plus with the FS thing...this would make a lot more sense if FS and FSA were both moved to before ALttP, considering how close the events of FSA are to the reports of the Imprisoning War. Eh...having a third timeline solves a lot of the problems, but it isn't supported by the events of the game, either, so it sounds like they're opening the door for stuff like "This game is in a timeline where TP happened except nobody wore hats!" and other types of multiverse tomfoolery.KrytenKoro 15:24, 22 December 2011 (EST)

I think, basically, they've realised that A Link to the Past was meant to be a sequel to OoT (and has always been stated as such), and also realised that OoT has two other sequels that don't mesh with it. Since TWW took up the place where ALttP was originally meant to go, and TP took up the other place on the child timeline, they needed to create a third option. Since the biggest discrepancy between the plot of OoT and the Imprisoning War is the actual "war" itself with the Knights of Hyrule and that Ganon got the whole Triforce, they needed to create a timeline in which this actually occurs. Of course, this is all just assumption. Exactly how this split occurs nobody knows. The word is that Link fails in the final battle with Ganon. This would lead to Ganon getting the Triforce of Power and Wisdom, hence having a complete Triforce, but then he is sealed in the Sacred Realm by the Knights of Hyrule and Seven Sages some time later (hence the Downfall of Hyrule as a chapter title). I can only assume these are different Sages than the ones in OoT.

So when they created OoT... it already had a "what if" ending. The ending is "what if there was someone to wield the Master Sword". The third timeline is that the Imprisoning War happens exactly as it was originally meant to. In that respect, Ocarina of Time already created a multiverse by being a different telling of the Imprisoning War. Whether this split is actually caused by some actual timeline tomfoolery we don't know. Lets wait and find out.

And yes, they possibly could of fit ALttP after FSA (especially if they're putting it after TP anyway), but that brings up its own issues. Fizzle 19:40, 22 December 2011 (EST)

This timeline has been confirmed from [video], which has someone flipping through the book. The timeline is in a chart and elaborated upon in following pages. Ganondorfdude11 22:10, 22 December 2011 (EST)

Translated here. --KingStarscream 14:46, 27 December 2011 (EST)

Well, since we have a lot of people considering adding the timeline, somebody must do it! I don't want to wait weeks until I have 200 edits to then make the move. --Zelda Fan 123 07:40, 28 December 2011 (EST)

I can start working on it now in Word, but it might take a while to get all of the "finer details" worked out in a readable, understandable fashion. I think I'm going to add the official timeline as a new section at the beginning and but the existing body as "Previous Theories" or some suchlike. Once I'm done I'll leave another post here. --KingStarscream 09:06, 28 December 2011 (EST)

EDIT: Well that was fast! I've got the revised page up over on User:KingStarscream/Zelda Timeline. The content page here is locked, so I'll have to pass it on to a mod to get it put it. Also, let me know if there are any changes that need to be made to my draft. --KingStarscream 10:20, 28 December 2011 (EST)

The problem is that currently we don't know the details on how the HDT is created. I have the impression that it's not just a hypothetical scenario, rather it occurs in a parallel universe (as in the Many-worlds interpretation in quantum-physics). Also, the "hero's defeat" implies that Link fell in the battle. I think we should wait a bit more, until we have a translation of the relevant pages. Zeldafan1982 14:04, 28 December 2011 (EST)

Can't you understand? It has been translated over and over again! Even a guy showed the book itself and somebody translated that. --Zelda Fan 123 17:04, 28 December 2011 (EST)

I wasn't referring to the diagram. We have to know at which point the third branch is created. GlitterBerri has a small paragraph about that, but she says it is from an unofficial source. Thus far only four pages have been translated! Another source: Beno's translation. Also this thread. Zeldafan1982 19:01, 28 December 2011 (EST)

I corrected my edit to reflect the vagueness of the third timeline. I don't think it's really a requirement that we know how or when it happened, just that it did. Nintendo says there's a third branch, BOOM, there's a third branch. Them not explaining the details around it doesn't negate its existence. --KingStarscream 11:39, 29 December 2011 (EST)

Actually, I don't think Link just dies. You see, it's actually quite simple. There is an original timeline, let's call this one timeline A. On OOT, Link sets out for Hyrule Castle, meets Zelda and goes to the Temple of Time. When he takes the Master Sword out of the pedestal, he doesn't travel in time nor create any alternate timelines. He just sleeps for 7 years. After that, he meets Sheik and starts awakening the Sages. But at some point, when going to either the Spirit or the Shadow Temple, he needs to go back to his childhood (to enter the Spirit Temple's passage to the right or get the Lens of Truth on the Bottom of the Well). After putting the Master Sword on the Pedestal of Time, he time travels 7 years back in time and at the same time, returns to being a child. That's the beginning of the Adult Timeline, which we will call timeline B. Now here's the interesting part: Link is no longer on timeline A, so Ganondorf succeeds in his plan but the Sages stop him and imprison him (Imprisoning War). But from the point of view of someone from timeline A, Link failed/died in his quest. However, he just went from a timeline from another. Back to timeline B, Link awakens all other Sages and fights Ganondorf. He defeats him and Zelda sends him back to his childhood again. Zelda is left alone on this destroyed Hyrule from timeline B, but they eventually reconstruct it and the backstory of TWW happens. But what about Link? Well, he's not back to the childhood from timeline B. He's now on a third timeline, called the Child Timeline. The Master Sword returns to its correct place and Link goes to meet Zelda again. From the player's view, the game ends and there's nothing more, but in fact, Link tells Zelda of what Ganondorf is going to do to Hyrule. He also uses his Triforce of Courage to prove that everything is true, and the Royal Family decides to arrest Ganon before he does anything. Years later, the Sages use a white sword made by themselves to execute Ganondorf for his horrific plans. This Ganon didn't even get the Triforce yet, but according to developers, by some "divine prank", he actually has the Triforce of Power and survives, thus starting TP. I know this is long and all, but I tried to be as detailed as possible. --Zelda Fan 123 13:04, 29 December 2011 (EST)

(backing this up a few notches for space) That's my theory too, but it's only a theory. It's likely got to do with the return to childhood for the Spirit Temple, but we can't say for certain since it's not official. Still, I stand by my statement that we don't need to know what caused the third branch to know it exists. --KingStarscream 15:42, 29 December 2011 (EST)

The Timeline has Been Revealed!

I'm sure you've all heard that the new timeline has been revealed:

                            WW --> PH --> ST

SS --> MC --> FS --> OOT --> MM --> TP --> FS

                            ALTTP --> Oracles --> LA --> Zelda --> Zelda II                                            
     

What do you think about this? And what about this page? I suggest we rework the page in to a "Zelda Timeline Theories" page and move all of the official statements plus the official timeline in to its own page as the "Zelda Timeline" page. That way timeline theorists can still read all of the theories if they want to create their own timeline. This can also work to help update the timeline in the future if a game's placement isn't revealed.

What do you think?

Lunertexcosmo 01:51, 23 December 2011 (EST)lunertexcosmo

Template:OT

Please don't expect users to comment as to their feelings on the matter of the timeline, as we are a wiki, not a forum. Every other question you pose pertaining to the article itself is fair game. Thanks! — cipriano^talk 13:54, 25 December 2011 (EST)

Move

Now that the official timeline has been revealed, I would suggest moving this current article to an entirely different title (something like Zelda Timeline Speculation), and then make a whole new article about the confirmed timeline. I believe the official timeline is justified a separate article, as the 3-way split was explained in detail within the Hyrule Historia book, and having these two pages alongside each other would result in the page being too big. If you're looking for this information on the timeline, refer to here. ToastUltimatum 07:40, 23 December 2011 (EST)

I agree. Maybe the move should wait until we can get scans from the book translated so that it can be more fully explained. Ganondorfdude11 02:46, 24 December 2011 (EST)

why not, i dunno, just delete all the speculation? the vast majority of the content on this page is nothing more than fanwank and folly now that nintendo has revealed what is "officially" canon and has no place on a website designed to inform people about this video game series. if people are unhappy that all their "hard work theorizing" has gone to waste then it's their own damn fault for spending too much time developing fanon that would inevitably be rendered false.Andross 07:16, 25 December 2011 (EST)

First off, Andross, if you do not curb your language, we may have to take consequential action on you and your account here on Zelda Wiki. This is a family-friendly encyclopedia; language like that has no place here. To see what you said, look in previous revisions (I deleted the word(s)). We can make room for the official timeline, but there will be by no means a full scale deletion of any such previous timeline content. It is important to this wiki and to the community that we preserve past information pertaining to both - as such, not ALL of this information will stay. I foresee a trimming of the speculative timelines to reflect only the ones with high evidence, timeline uniqueness, and general acceptance in the community (before the official release). Personally, I believe half of the fun in video games is theorizing and messing about with the franchise's "expanded universe": its the only way to continue the experience with a game you love without playing it! Stay civil everyone! — cipriano^talk 13:48, 25 December 2011 (EST)

of course speculating and whatnot CAN BE fun, but only when it doesn't contradict official information (in which case it becomes "this is how I want things to be" subjective narcissism or, in interwebz terminology, fanwank). if this new timeline is official--and by all accounts, it is--then any and all prior fan timelines will be rendered "what if this happened instead" fanfiction. why would one want that on a website that is meant to objectively inform individuals about this video game series, when it would only confuse readers/people new to the series instead? tl;dr when the official timeline is confirmed there will be zero acceptance of any speculative timelines and only nintendo's will be canon. Andross 14:49, 25 December 2011 (EST)

I agree that HH's timeline is the canonical one. Despite that, be assured that there will be fans who would stick (or create) to their own timelines if they think they make more sense. As long as the article is clear about what is official and unofficial (and the reason unofficial timelines still exist) I don't see how a reader could be misinformed. Zeldafan1982 15:13, 25 December 2011 (EST)

For the sake of completion and a reflection of the Zelda community's evolution, I think at least we should retain how the theorizing has changed over the course of the years. With each new installment, theories have changed to accomodate to the storyline of these newer games. The 2D Child, 2D Adult and 2D Split Timeline theories may not be canonical anymore, but they did have a strong influence over the gaming community and fans of the series in general. Overlooking this in favor of simply saying "now THIS is the timeline, n00bs, mwahahahaha!" is like disowning theories like Newtonian Mechanics just because Einstein came with a more complete theory, never mind the huge inspiration Newton and others like Galileo and Copernicus gave to the world of our ancestors. But hey, that's just me! --User:K2L/sig 15:58, 25 December 2011 (EST)

I agree with the suggested move. Have the official timeline on this page with the relevant explanations, and add a link to the speculation page. State that these were the theories fan had made before the official one was released and BAM! Disaster averted. You have to remember that we are also a community wiki, and all these timelines have impacted the community long before Hyrule Historia came out. Maybe we can even explain what that impact was in detail. User:Abdullah/sig 16:08, 25 December 2011 (EST)

For the record, I'm a bit skeptical about this timeline, and I'm surely not the only one. Personally, I won't really believe it's the real deal until I hear Miyamoto or Iwata say so. However, if it is official, then our hands our tied. In any case, this is definitely a great opportunity to finally cut down on speculation in some of our other articles. I won't be surprised if we see a different version of the timeline released some time in the future, though. — Hylian King ^[*] 15:28, 27 December 2011 (EST)

According to GlitterBerri Aonuma is the supervising editor (link). Zeldafan1982 17:48, 27 December 2011 (EST)

Either way, this is still a translation - we can see that it appears canonical, because Glitterberri is a respected translator in the community and that there are editing credits by higher-ups in Nintendo's EAD, but there still is no official English version. Haters are going to hate, and nay-sayers are going to nay, but we do need to leave a disclaimer on the new page for the "official" timeline that states something like this: "Although evidence points strongly in its favor, all information pertaining to the timeline sourced in Hyrule Historia is translated from the Japanese edition. An official English version does not exist at this time; there many be discrepancies in translation between the English and Japanese languages that may change the overall intent, structure, or perception of this information and/or timeline." Without this disclaimer, we make the mistake of all wikis that claim ultimate fact from translated material - we need to be able to cover ourselves in the event that an English version does arise with differing material, which it likely would. It's all about preserving the credibility of the wiki, while staying open in case there is some change to the information across regions. — cipriano^talk 17:56, 28 December 2011 (EST)

The likelihood of an official English release appears to be low at the moment, considering that there are no plans by Nintendo to translate the book. Ganondorfdude11 03:54, 31 December 2011 (EST)

Regardless of the likelihood of an English release, it is a comment that is necessary to keep us from making too many assumptions. As a wiki with biased and unpredictable user contributed material, we need to attempt to stay as honest and reputable as possible. — cipriano^talk 18:37, 31 December 2011 (EST)

"unconventional"

how is "gameplay first, story later" unconventional.

seriously, guys.

that's standard game design. the entire industry, save for a few exceptions like heavy rain, follows that philosophy. "story first, gameplay later" would be unconventional design whose only proponents would be writers and art majors who somehow think that being able to tell a good story is the same thing as being able to design a good game.Andross 07:16, 25 December 2011 (EST)

What we mean by "unconventional" is the speed at which Nintendo games, especially Zelda, throw the player into the action without a whole lot of introduction/dialogue, and continue to do so throughout the game. In this age, franchises like Mario and Zelda (excluding SS), generally keep dialogue to a minimum in favor of actual gameplay. Its a solid distinction to make - the argument can be made that, yes, that is standard game design in the general sense, but the speed and fullness at which Nintendo goes about it is indeed unconventional in today's gaming scene. It is a good point though, and a distinction in the article should be made. Good catch. — cipriano^talk 13:58, 25 December 2011 (EST)

I have to disagree with the part about minimal dialogue in SS. The intro section of the game involves an awful lot of UNSKIPPABLE dialogue, including the teacher telling you how to run up walls and jump gaps and stuff. The cutscene at the beginning of the game is about 3 minutes of Link's nightmare followed by reading a letter. After that, the whole "find your bird" thing involves a number of lengthy conversations. It keeps going from there. It's "gameplay first" only in the sense that it doesn't have a 20 minute introduction.

All of that said, I'm NOT complaining about it in the least because I enjoy the story behind SS, which explains a number of important plot points for the overall universe. Exposition is good. But it's not all that different from other modern games anymore. OoT invented the "video game as a movie" concept, but that was the last time it was truely unconventional. --KingStarscream 11:50, 29 December 2011 (EST)

I think the point is that the developers design all the gameplay first, THEN add the story elements later. I've often heard that design work in Zelda games usually begins with the dungeons, with overworld and story elements coming later. However, I don't think this is necessarily all that unconventional, depending on the game.

Also, I think people need to replay TP again, because if you thought SS the longest intro, you definitely aren't remembering TP that well. Yeesh. At least the text easy to skip through, but still. Man though, I miss ALttP's design of basically throwing you into the first dungeon straight away. I think a lot of people would be grateful for a more intergrated and less expositiony tutorial sequence. Getting off topic here though. Fizzle 09:05, 31 December 2011 (EST)

"Getting of topic here though"

Sorry, couldn't resist, mwahahahahahahaha!! Happy new year, everybody! --User:K2L/sig 22:20, 31 December 2011 (EST)

Rename article to 'Chronology of the Legend of Zelda series'

Per Dany36's request, I wanted to discuss a move of this article from 'Zelda Timeline' to 'Chronology of the Legend of Zelda series'. Now that Nintendo has provided an official chronology for the series, I feel 'chronology' has a nicer ring to it, while 'Zelda Timeline' just kind of feels like it is still very fan-oriented. Mighty Dekunut 20:13, 4 January 2012 (EST)

I say it should stay. Since when does fans refer to the timeline as "chronology"? I know that the term is a bit more correct, but most people just call it the timeline. It's been like that for years now. The Goron Moron 20:15, 4 January 2012 (EST)

That is one of the reasons why I feel more comfortable with chronology. Fans refer to things like timeline. Nintendo (as was also used in the intro to the article) uses the word chronology. It is official now; no more (need for) fan interpretations. Mighty Dekunut 20:34, 4 January 2012 (EST)

Scan of the timeline

Hey, we now got a direct scan of the timeline from the book. It's in Japanese, but I think we should replace the fan version with it and leave a link to GlitterBerri's version on the page in case somebody wants to look at it. Anyways, here it is: File:ZeldatimelineJapHH.png. Should we add it to the article? --Zelda Fan 123 10:11, 5 January 2012 (EST)

I don't think it should replace the one from GlitterBerri. Keep in mind that we are an American, English wiki, so putting up a picture full of text that most might not understand readers might not be the best idea, even if it's more official. In any case, I took the liberty of adding it to a gallery myself. Thanks for uploading it! "Picture of the Year" or what, eh? — Hylian King ^[*] 11:36, 5 January 2012 (EST)

My idea is to put the original one in the same place as the translated one, but only move it to the left (since there is already the Timeline template to the right). Then we could put a link to the translated one on the original's thumb or put the translated one on the gallery. --Zelda Fan 123 12:47, 5 January 2012 (EST)

I think it makes more sense to have the translated one up top. Like I said, the vast majority of viewers at this wiki won't be able to read any of the text in the original Japanese picture. — Hylian King ^[*] 15:28, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Well, I'm ok with it being there, but it's not very pleasant to see something fan-made. Also, the credits on the top right aren't making the image any better... Maybe somebody with patience should make a perfect remake of the original page in English. --Zelda Fan 123 15:48, 5 January 2012 (EST)

a perfect remake in English

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you not trust the translation? Or are you only bothered by the credits? Mighty Dekunut 18:15, 5 January 2012 (EST)

I think the translations are perfect, the only thing that bothers me are the credits and a few mistakes, such as "The Dark Wold..." and a few missing info between Link's Awakening and Zelda I. --Zelda Fan 123 18:36, 5 January 2012 (EST)

Finally! I wasted my whole afternoon doing this, but I have made a more accurate translation of the timeline. It includes the description, corrects any mistakes that are on the GlitterBerri version, adds the missing info and looks more like the book (I have also corrected a TLOZ artwork that was wrong). You can see it here: File:ZeldatimelineHHtranslation.png. --Zelda Fan 123 11:24, 6 January 2012 (EST)

That's great! Can you set the picture on the article? --9klas 18:06, 6 January 2012 (EST)

Unfortunately, no... I must have 200 edits to edit the article, which would be hard to do quickly. --Zelda Fan 123 12:03, 6 January 2012 (EST)

Timeline references

While adding legitimate, in-game and manual references are well and good, why aren't we adding translated references from Hyrule Historia itself? If I'm not mistaken, several fansites around the community have the many pages describing the timeline translated as well, references with would further confirm the chronology and the explanations we have here. Since its all translated material, and we have the disclaimer in the page's introduction warning of potential misinterpretation, it would work in the same vein to add text references straight out of Hyrule Historia. I am aware that ZeldaInformer is a great source of this translated information, as they've posted several connected pieces in the last week of so in respect to the book. — cipriano^talk 12:18, 6 January 2012 (EST)